Interviewer: So before we get into some of the more in-depth questions, would you mind providing your title for when you worked at The Free Thought Project, the amount of time you were with the organization, and also describing what kind of tasks you undertook with the group?

 

John: My official title was “Social Media Manager”. I started volunteering with TFTP in 2014 making memes for some of the pages run by them. In 2015 I was brought on and given a paying role with the organization, and I left at the end of 2020, although I continued to make memes sporadically for them for another few months.

 

Interviewer: How did you become involved with the organization?

 

John: In 2013 I created a Facebook page called Murica Today (MT). I started making memes centered around the news articles I read, and as I was a vocal critic of policing in the US I eventually discovered Cop Block, Police the Police (PTP, a TFTP run page) and the TFTP website. At the same time I was running MT I also became involved in Facebook groups with like-minded individuals and ended up meeting a few people I added as content creators for MT. Our content became very popular, and that’s when I noticed Cop Block and PTP were either reposting or remaking many of our MT memes for those pages. A few months later an employee with TFTP reached out to me and asked me to begin directly making some content for them.

 

Interviewer: How would you describe the ideology of the group?

 

John: TFTP as a whole market themselves as “Voluntaryist”, “Anarcho-capitalist”, “libertarian”.

 

Interviewer: How many people from when you came onboard versus when you left were involved in the organization? If you can recall specific titles for individuals this too would be helpful.

 

John: When I began volunteering for TFTP there was approximately 9 people working for TFTP; 6 writers, 1 social media manager (myself) with Matt and Jason helping with social media.

 

Interviewer: As far as the main operators of the site, Matt Agorist/Savoy and Jason Bassler, what were their broad qualifications or backgrounds in running the website and organization as a whole?

 

John: I cannot speak to the exact qualifications of Matt and Jason, however during my time at TFTP the division of labor was basically that Matt handled the operations of the site and Jason handled the social media side. When I was brought on initially my responsibilities were on the social media side (making memes, posting links, engaging with audiences on different pages) but after a few months I also began writing a few articles.

 

Interviewer: In regards to how the organization defined themselves, did they always see themselves as a journalistic organization, as a non-profit, or something else?

 

John: In my opinion, Matt’s public statement about being a journalist and an activist which was cited in your article is the best assessment for how the group defines itself.

 

Interviewer: What kinds of ties did the organization have to other journalistic or research entities (i.e., InfoWars, Mind Unleashed)? How heavily did they engage with them to the best of your recollection?

 

John: TFTP was one of several organizations (e.g., TMU, The Anti-Media, Cop Block, Filming Cops) that networked with each other and shared each other’s content. During my time with TFTP to the best of my knowledge Infowars was not a part of this network, but during the early days of TFTP there were some articles from Infowars that TFTP aggregated.

 

Interviewer: How many memes would you estimate you made for The Free Thought Project? Furthermore, how many would you estimate were accurate or true?

 

John: Over the nearly 6 years of making content for TFTP I made thousands of memes for TFTP’s network of pages. I cannot offer an estimate as to the percentage that are accurate but I will say that it is not nearly high enough for TFTP to be considered a credible journalistic entity. Nonetheless, we reached millions directly through memes, and then indirectly by various outlets reposting or remaking our content. I have seen my memes on TV news programs, printed out and posted in gas stations, I even stumbled across one I made in an info binder for campers when I went camping at a state park in South Carolina. 

 

John: If I had to put an estimate on the reach of my content, I’d estimate that at least half the US alone has seen one of my memes.

 

Interviewer: If you know, at the site’s height, how much revenue was it taking in? In addition, how many people is it believed internally the site has been able to reach?

 

John: I do not know how much revenue the site was bringing in at its height as that information was never shared with me, although I do know that at one point we received funding from a cryptocurrency called “Dash” to help market their brand. At its height the website was bringing in well in excess of 10 million clicks a month, and on the social media side, TFTP and PTP videos alone had well over a hundred million views. 

 

Interviewer: In looking at revenue, was there a change in how the site functioned from the beginning into the Trump administration? Was there a desire to make articles more speculative or sensationalized?

 

John: Although the revenue model never explicitly changed, TFTP fell into an information silo around the time of Pizzagate, and remains there to this day.  While the website doesn’t explicitly ascribe to QAnon beliefs, a lot of the content on the site is geared towards a right-wing conspiracy audience.

 

Interviewer: How was criticism by either fact-checking organizations or from individuals online dealt with internally?

 

John: The reception to fact checkers was nearly always met with hostility. When FB started with 3rd party fact checking I initially shared in this hostility, however I soon began to realize that we would have to conform to this new standard and Jason and I agreed that in addition to my primary roles I would also act as an in house fact checker because Matt had a lot to handle with running the website and writing nearly all the articles at this point (most of the writers were let go following the purge in 2018). In hindsight this is eventually what started causing problems between myself, Matt and Jason. When I began fact checking, I wasn’t given final say over content, so although I offered input, there were times when it was rejected and content went out as it was. It was also at this time that I started going through many old articles that we ran as “flashback files” and started fact checking/updating/deleting articles depending on how factually accurate they were. During this time I deleted/corrected/updated dozens of articles about Seth Rich, Clinton’s emails, The Rothschild’s, vaccines, and a host of other topics. 

 

Interviewer: Are you aware of any other past employees who have left the company? If you can recall, for what reasons did they leave?

 

John: To the best of my knowledge, everyone whom I worked with at TFTP has left (except Matt and Jason) for a multitude of reasons (e.g., creative differences, lack of revenue to pay them) [and] moved on to other outlets.

 

Interviewer: In regards to the banning of various pages on Facebook (e.g., The Anti Media, CopBlock, Filming Cops) in October of 2018, were these pages all being run by a select few individuals?

 

John: Yes, the networks of pages listed above were run, in total, by just a few handfuls of individuals.

 

Interviewer:What was the reaction to the banning of these pages within TFTP and by the founders? In your view, were these pages in violation of Facebook’s guidelines on spam and “inauthentic behavior”?

 

John: When the initial purge of Facebook pages occurred in October of 2018 the attitude was, in a word, apocalyptic. We saw our livelihood being taken from us. To this day, even fully aware of all the harm I helped perpetuate, working with TFTP was the best job I have ever had, and it’s the reason why it took me so long to realize everything I had done. Even after I began to realize it, I spent over a year trying to convince Matt and Jason to try and correct our course, and reestablish or re-brand TFTP into a more objective journalistic entity all in a vain attempt to keep doing what I loved. When it became clear the writing was on the wall and I could no longer continue with TFTP, I even had moments of suicidal ideation over the prospect of losing something I had worked tirelessly to helped build.

 

Interviewer: What was the reaction by those in leadership to how well memes did on Reddit, Facebook, and elsewhere? If you know, who is running the meme or social outreach section for TFTP now?

 

John: When memes went viral there was a general feeling of elatedness. Viral memes also helped produce angles for articles to drive more website traffic, they helped us steer narratives, build our brands, be reposted by celebrities, grow our pages which ultimately helped drive even more traffic. To the best of my knowledge Jason is the only one left producing memes for TFTP, however I haven’t spoken to either Matt or Jason in several months.

 

Interviewer: How would you sum up both Agorist/Savoy and Bassler’s political views? Would you classify them as being true believers in what they post and publish?

 

John: Matt and Jason make no secret that they identify as Anarcho-Capitalists, small “L” libertarians, and conspiracy theorists. They approach information from a biased perspective (ie: government is illegitimate, media is corrupt/lying/hiding the truth/dividing people) and work backwards from that. Information that counters their beliefs is met with hostility, ridiculed, dismissed, or flat out ignored and they often fail to fact check information that confirms something they believe. 

 

John: I do not believe Jason or Matt are ideologically inclined to change the site. In their minds I think they believe that they are brave truth tellers and no amount of fact checks, bans, pages being removed, etc. will change that

 

Interviewer: How concerned were they with the marketability of their content, including memes and articles on the site?

 

John: Marketability to their preferred audience was of paramount importance. In my time with them I was often asked to produce content and reword memes to increase the likelihood of them to resonate with the audience or increase the likelihood that something would go viral. Angles for articles were selected based on how well we thought they would perform/get shared/generate clicks.

 

Interviewer: Furthermore, while a stretch, did you witness any close or concerning ties to Russian state media or the state media agency of a foreign power?

 

John: The Russia question is going to be very difficult to answer as it does have quite a bit of nuance. I will start by saying that at no time do I recall being told my Matt or Jason of any direct ties to any Russian entity. With that being said, even as observers like yourself have noted, there was an obvious crossover between TFTP content and RT’s. TFTP aggregated countless RT articles, narratives they pushed (if not directly appropriated from Russian media) were shaped by Russian media. Matt has given multiple interviews to Russian state media organizations and a former TFTP journalist (Rachel Blevins) is now a correspondent with RT based in Moscow. 

 

John: Looking back, I honestly believe the site was being supported by some other network, but again I cannot prove this and I would strongly encourage journalists to reach out to Facebook for more information about this. Again, I want to reiterate that at no time do I recall ever having direct contact with anyone from the Russian government. I do not believe Matt and Jason do either. To phrase it more simply, we were likely just “useful idiots” for a foreign sponsored disinformation campaign.

 

Interviewer: Did they themselves ever seem concerned with possibly proliferating misinformation or disinformation or advancing the goals of foreign powers (e.g., Russia, Syria)?

 

John: Proliferating misinformation was a small concern as the site wanted to maintain a degree of credibility. We avoided or didn’t expressly promote certain topics (like QAnon, flat earth, moon landing hoax, etc.), however, the concern for advancing the goals of foreign powers was (in my estimation) much less pronounced. TFTP consistently aggregated articles glamorizing or promoting Putin. To be clear, I am not saying TFTP is “Russian disinformation”, what I am saying is that they often publish the same or similar content that a Russian disinformation outlet would publish.

 

Interviewer: Was there ever a desire to spread more negative news stories on Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden versus Donald Trump? Who pushed this platform most within the organization?

 

John: The disparity in coverage between Hillary, Trump and Biden has become glaringly obvious as time goes on. As I tweeted a few weeks ago, the site has over a dozen pages of articles about Hillary’s emails, and thus far has zero about Trump allegedly committing espionage. They have published numerous articles about Hunter Biden and thus far zero about Jared Kushner’s ties to the Saudis. Now if you ask Matt and Jason about this disparity the answer will likely be something to the effect of, “The mainstream media is covering it therefore they don’t have to, because they are trying to report “the truth” that the mainstream media is ignoring”

 

Interviewer: During your tenure at the organization, did you ever feel uncomfortable with the articles being run or take offense to some of the insinuations being made on the site? Did you voice your frustrations or qualms to senior staff; What was their response?

 

John: When COVID started taking over the news, I repeatedly asked, argued, and begged Matt and Jason to approach it objectively. Instead, to promote their narrative, my opinions and fact checks on the topic were repeatedly rejected, they downplayed the virus's severity, encouraged people not to wear masks, or not get vaccinated. I was removed as an admin from the TFTP group I created after I fact checked some posts and started posting things that didn’t align with TFTP’s worldview. It was also around this time when I began to notice your critiques on our posts on [the subreddit r/Bad_Cop_No_Donut]. While I admittedly initially ignored them (as I did with most Reddit comments/messages) I eventually came around and read your column about Zero Hedge, and TFTP. Your research was very thorough and I truly appreciated some of your critiques (Dates being off on articles being one). When I shared the column with Matt and Jason and told them I thought there was valuable criticism, it was completely dismissed out of hand. There was absolutely no “free thought” left and I saw it as an act of cognitive dissonance, which ironically, both Jason and I have made countless memes about.

 

Interviewer: When did you decide to leave the company and what was the inciting incident for doing so? 

 

John: All of this ultimately came to a head at the end of November, beginning of December, when my grandmother caught COVID and died. At that point I decided I could no longer be a part of something that was working against my own self-interest. I left TFTP, but I did continue sporadically making memes for PTP to make a little extra money, and help Jason out with that page until mid 2021 as I still to this day care very much about police accountability. To the best of my knowledge, only Jason and Matt remain, however it appears that they have a writer or two who occasionally do freelance writing.

 

Interviewer: When leaving, did the relationship change or how did the organization take your leaving?

 

John: When I left, Jason, Matt and I had a mutual agreement it was best. Prior to leaving I had begun refusing to post links to articles I knew were incorrect or lacking context. I did this because 1) I was repeatedly catching bans and 2) I was, in essence, trying to save TFTP from itself. Getting repeatedly fact-checked for inaccurate information was not only hurting the pages' reach but also causing real world harm. Even after leaving, as mentioned before, we remained cordial for a while. I still made memes for them occasionally, I forwarded news stories and tweets that I thought would interest them, and kept in touch wishing them well on holidays, birthdays, etc. This cordial relationship continued for many months until I began publicly criticizing their content on Twitter. Around the time of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Jason and Matt subsequently blocked me and we haven't spoken since

 

Interviewer: In your view, how much of a danger is misinformation, regardless of it being politically left or right? What, in your view, can help others identify misinformation or keep from becoming enticed by fake news?

 

John: After watching the last nearly 2 years play out with the attempted coup on the 6th, continued struggle with COVID-19, the war in Ukraine, and the various Trump investigations coming to a head I think now it is more important than ever, with the ongoing threat to democracy and the midterm elections coming up, to counter mis-and-disinformation. I have become disgusted watching the mainstream media try to “both sides” a fascist takeover of the US government while organizations within the right-wing information ecosystem are treated as legitimate political outlets and allowed to continually spread lies and half-truths. America is teetering on the brink, and I worry that outlets like TFTP, Infowars and the like have created an alternate reality for millions of people that could lead to an armed insurgency creating mass civil unrest if given the right conditions that allow it to fester. Identifying mis-and-disinformation in many cases means being willing to challenge your own biases. If you see a headline you agree with, or that provokes an emotional reaction, be on guard. Always try to confirm what you read through multiple, various sources. Never assume something is true just because you want it to be true.